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  • Going into vintage watches? Here're some basics

    Hi,

    I thought this article is better suited to be posted here than the Kopitalk (I have posted some articles there). Hope this can help some of you who intend to venture further


    How to choose a vintage

    By JACK WONG

    BELOW are general tips on selecting your vintage watch.

    First golden rule of thumb: originality is everything. If a watch is left in its original condition, despite appearing old to the undiscerning, it is worth much more than one that has been modified.

    Sympathetic restoration (bringing the piece as close to its original condition as possible) that involved dismantling the whole watch and cleaning it is generally acceptable so long as visible parts of the watch are not changed. On the other hand, it is a plus if movement parts that are worn out are replaced by original OEM parts.

    One of the most important and valuable part of the watch is the dial. The dial must be original and not tampered with. Some common descriptive terms that suggest otherwise, such as 'redial', 'reconditioned' or 'expertly refinished dial' are taboo to the hardcore vintage watch collector.

    Vintage watches that show luminescence on the dial that are made before the 1980s are usually applied tritium, or radium in the case of the earlier radioactive ones and these appear anything from ivory to dark brown in coloration. This patina is perfectly fine, and in fact, a desirable feature for the collector especially if the colour is consistent throughout and developed naturally with no sign of damage (mouldy appearance or flaking).

    Another very important part of the watch is of course its case. An overly machine-polished watch would mean that some metal from the case has been shaved off, and the shape of the watch has been altered to some degree. This is usually frowned upon.

    Certain brands, notably Rolex, which has a serial number and model number etched in-between the lugs of each watch (for most brands, the serial number is simply found on the movement or back of the caseback) must be clear and not tampered with. There should be almost no pitting or damage to the area where the caseback is screwed (or snapped) onto the case as this will jeopardise the waterproofing capability of the watch.

    Some watch hands are known to cost a small fortune on its own as they are extremely rare for certain models. Generally, if the watch hands have some luminescence (usually inert by now), the coloration of the patina should resemble very closely to that on the watch dial or look slightly more aged.

    Watch crowns (and pushers in the case of a chronograph watch) are usually replaced as part of watch-maintenance for waterproofing processes. Generally this is fine as long as that part is original stock and that model does not have parts that are only unique in certain watch variants. (The smaller sized pushers of the early Omega Speedmasters have been discontinued and are now with larger sized crowns.)

    Of course, if the watch has an original crown (or pusher) that has never been replaced at all, the collector runs the risk of having water entering the watch. In any case, no vintage watch should be treated as a waterproofed watch unless pressure tested.

    Watch movement calibers must be aligned with the same model of the watch. Movement must be checked for any foreign parts that are modified to fit and used as a substitute. The serial number on the movement (if any) must correspond with the same period of manufacture on the watch case. Differing period suggests a 'Frankenstein' watch.

    Finally, if the vintage watch comes with a clean, original crystal strap (though some accompanying bracelets are rare and very valuable on its own), and other ephemera, then this is considered a bonus and the watch usually sells at a higher premium. These are good to have, but not essential. Hence before buying any vintage watch, do your due diligence and of course, caveat emptor (buyer beware).

    The Business of Time
    Published August 26, 2011
    The Crown Of Achievement

  • #2
    Thanks for sharing!

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks, vintage watches are very nice.....
      My Current

      Rolex Daytona 116515
      Rolex Submariner 16610
      Rolex Submariner 116610
      Rolex Date 1550
      IWC Spitfire Chronograph 371705
      IWC Portuguese 7 Days 500107
      Omega Ocean Planet 22015000
      Bell & Ross Heritage BR126
      Grand Seiko GMT SBGM021
      Seiko Sumo SBDC001
      Seiko Sumo SBDC003
      Seiko Marinemaster SBDX012
      Seiko Brightz SDGZ013 Chronograph

      Comment


      • #4
        I know Jack from back then. He has a good collection and knowledge.

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks for sharing.
          Current Collection :

          1) Rolex YG White Mother of Pearl Roman Dial Datejust 16018 (8 mil Serial)

          2) Rolex YG Black Computer Roman Dial Datejust 16238 (L Serial)

          3) Rolex TT Blue Submariner 16613LB (M Serial)

          4) Rolex YG Red Vignette DayDate 18038 (8 mil Serial)

          5) Rolex PT Pinkish White MOP DayDate 18206 (A Serial)

          Comment


          • #6
            no disrespect to any vintage gurus, the author of this article. im not a vintage guru/expert. if i offended anyone in anyway, i apologize.

            these are the pointers to look for. however, most vintage watch are hardly as original. if you see a vintage watch that is almost as good as new, how can one tell if it is truly original.

            i am going to open pandora box here. is it not possible that this watch that you see that looks almost as good as new is not one that is made up of maybe several watches. take for example a rolex 5513. i see watch A which has good case condition and movement inside. i see watch B with good condition dial (that matches watch A period of production), hands, and bezel. i see watch C with bracelet and clasps matching watch A serial number period of production. (watches A, B & C are same model)

            i then take the good parts and watches A, B and C and assembly together to get a 'super' watch. the rest, i just assemble together and sell it @ market value. however, the 'super' watch can command a super premium because it is in such almost immaculate condition.

            someone did ask me before about buying vintage watches. i am not an expert in vintage watches. but with vintage watches, the watch itself may have gone through several owners. the buyer would not know the true history of the watch.

            the only sure way i know that the watch in concern is in original pristine condition is when the watch comes with warranty papers bearing the seller's name or a watch receipt with information on the watch itself such as serial number and the seller's name. else to me the watch itself can be a modded watch

            sometimes i feel that the imperfections of the watch is what it gives the watch its character. yes, the dial may have corrosion, the hands may have seen better times, the case may have pitted. but this is what i feel it gives the watch its vintage character. these imperfections may sometimes be what is truly original to the watch itself.

            as always, buy a watch that you like. vintage watches has its charm and risks. the same goes to buildings which government insists that the exterior needs to be preserved but the interior, you can do what you like. what is the point, to me the essence of watch has been eroded once the imperfections have been perfected.

            Originally posted by Oceanklassik View Post
            Hi,

            How to choose a vintage

            By JACK WONG

            BELOW are general tips on selecting your vintage watch.

            First golden rule of thumb: originality is everything. If a watch is left in its original condition, despite appearing old to the undiscerning, it is worth much more than one that has been modified.

            Sympathetic restoration (bringing the piece as close to its original condition as possible) that involved dismantling the whole watch and cleaning it is generally acceptable so long as visible parts of the watch are not changed. On the other hand, it is a plus if movement parts that are worn out are replaced by original OEM parts.

            One of the most important and valuable part of the watch is the dial. The dial must be original and not tampered with. Some common descriptive terms that suggest otherwise, such as 'redial', 'reconditioned' or 'expertly refinished dial' are taboo to the hardcore vintage watch collector.

            Vintage watches that show luminescence on the dial that are made before the 1980s are usually applied tritium, or radium in the case of the earlier radioactive ones and these appear anything from ivory to dark brown in coloration. This patina is perfectly fine, and in fact, a desirable feature for the collector especially if the colour is consistent throughout and developed naturally with no sign of damage (mouldy appearance or flaking).

            Another very important part of the watch is of course its case. An overly machine-polished watch would mean that some metal from the case has been shaved off, and the shape of the watch has been altered to some degree. This is usually frowned upon.

            Certain brands, notably Rolex, which has a serial number and model number etched in-between the lugs of each watch (for most brands, the serial number is simply found on the movement or back of the caseback) must be clear and not tampered with. There should be almost no pitting or damage to the area where the caseback is screwed (or snapped) onto the case as this will jeopardise the waterproofing capability of the watch.

            Some watch hands are known to cost a small fortune on its own as they are extremely rare for certain models. Generally, if the watch hands have some luminescence (usually inert by now), the coloration of the patina should resemble very closely to that on the watch dial or look slightly more aged.

            Watch crowns (and pushers in the case of a chronograph watch) are usually replaced as part of watch-maintenance for waterproofing processes. Generally this is fine as long as that part is original stock and that model does not have parts that are only unique in certain watch variants. (The smaller sized pushers of the early Omega Speedmasters have been discontinued and are now with larger sized crowns.)

            Of course, if the watch has an original crown (or pusher) that has never been replaced at all, the collector runs the risk of having water entering the watch. In any case, no vintage watch should be treated as a waterproofed watch unless pressure tested.

            Watch movement calibers must be aligned with the same model of the watch. Movement must be checked for any foreign parts that are modified to fit and used as a substitute. The serial number on the movement (if any) must correspond with the same period of manufacture on the watch case. Differing period suggests a 'Frankenstein' watch.

            Finally, if the vintage watch comes with a clean, original crystal strap (though some accompanying bracelets are rare and very valuable on its own), and other ephemera, then this is considered a bonus and the watch usually sells at a higher premium. These are good to have, but not essential. Hence before buying any vintage watch, do your due diligence and of course, caveat emptor (buyer beware).

            The Business of Time
            Published August 26, 2011
            if you have issues with your account, click here for self help and read forum rules here. 90% of your answers can be found in Forum FAQ

            i DO NOT respond to any pm regarding account issues

            kindly email with
            1. subject heading indicating your issue
            2. your nick
            3. your corresponding email address
            4. state what you were trying to do and what the system prevented you to do


            if you receive no response in pm or email, it means your answers can be found in the Forum FAQ here

            your kind understanding is very much appreciated.

            disclaimer : all opinions expressed are personal

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by triton View Post
              no disrespect to any vintage gurus, the author of this article. im not a vintage guru/expert. if i offended anyone in anyway, i apologize.

              these are the pointers to look for. however, most vintage watch are hardly as original. if you see a vintage watch that is almost as good as new, how can one tell if it is truly original.

              i am going to open pandora box here. is it not possible that this watch that you see that looks almost as good as new is not one that is made up of maybe several watches. take for example a rolex 5513. i see watch A which has good case condition and movement inside. i see watch B with good condition dial (that matches watch A period of production), hands, and bezel. i see watch C with bracelet and clasps matching watch A serial number period of production. (watches A, B & C are same model)

              i then take the good parts and watches A, B and C and assembly together to get a 'super' watch. the rest, i just assemble together and sell it @ market value. however, the 'super' watch can command a super premium because it is in such almost immaculate condition.

              someone did ask me before about buying vintage watches. i am not an expert in vintage watches. but with vintage watches, the watch itself may have gone through several owners. the buyer would not know the true history of the watch.

              the only sure way i know that the watch in concern is in original pristine condition is when the watch comes with warranty papers bearing the seller's name or a watch receipt with information on the watch itself such as serial number and the seller's name. else to me the watch itself can be a modded watch

              sometimes i feel that the imperfections of the watch is what it gives the watch its character. yes, the dial may have corrosion, the hands may have seen better times, the case may have pitted. but this is what i feel it gives the watch its vintage character. these imperfections may sometimes be what is truly original to the watch itself.

              as always, buy a watch that you like. vintage watches has its charm and risks. the same goes to buildings which government insists that the exterior needs to be preserved but the interior, you can do what you like. what is the point, to me the essence of watch has been eroded once the imperfections have been perfected.

              to me this is fine and classisfied as everything original as long as the case,hand,dial,bezel & bracelet are correct or match the production period.

              i personally know of some collector who bought a SD with a DRSD case but with a great white dial and source for a correct DRSD dial to match the case just to assemble and create the ultimate DRSD.

              ultimately for now,it's very hard to find a untouched rolex vintage with everything matches,even if u find it,it will cost a bomb.

              So if there's a chance, i rather choose to buy watch A almost all matches the watch expect for the dial and find watch B with a rojak combination but with the dial which matches watch A and do a dial swap and create the ultimate "untouched" piece and keep the rojak combination piece as a daily beater...

              Just my 2 cents worth.happy holiday to all.cheers.
              累了才放慢脚步; 错了才想到后悔;苦了才懂得满足;伤了 才明白坚强; 醉了才知道难忘 ; 笑了才体会美丽!

              是否我沉默了,你才能听到我的心声?是否我停止了,你才能看到我的眼泪?是否我心碎了,你才会摸到我的心痛?是否我消失了,你才会知道我的存在?

              Comment


              • #8
                Agree. This is fine and still consider original as long as they parts are original and period correct. Same as car. When windscreen crack, replace with oem one means ok. If replaced with other made-for brand then not ok.

                There is no way to tell if a crown, bezel, spring, glass or even dial (period correct) has been replaced. Only case, case back, bracelet has serial/date code that helps to match.

                Originally posted by illusion84 View Post
                to me this is fine and classisfied as everything original as long as the case,hand,dial,bezel & bracelet are correct or match the production period.

                i personally know of some collector who bought a SD with a DRSD case but with a great white dial and source for a correct DRSD dial to match the case just to assemble and create the ultimate DRSD.

                ultimately for now,it's very hard to find a untouched rolex vintage with everything matches,even if u find it,it will cost a bomb.

                So if there's a chance, i rather choose to buy watch A almost all matches the watch expect for the dial and find watch B with a rojak combination but with the dial which matches watch A and do a dial swap and create the ultimate "untouched" piece and keep the rojak combination piece as a daily beater...

                Just my 2 cents worth.happy holiday to all.cheers.

                Comment


                • #9
                  different people have different interpretation on what is termed original. some people are really particular, some people not so. i got couple of people who says that they do not want a watch that is 'modded'.

                  to some people, as long as original rolex is ok. even if period is not correct. for others, they are more particular.

                  with this, do you think it is fair that the assembled 'ultimate' watch be priced as untouched pristine condition watch?

                  Originally posted by illusion84 View Post
                  ultimately for now,it's very hard to find a untouched rolex vintage with everything matches,even if u find it,it will cost a bomb.

                  So if there's a chance, i rather choose to buy watch A almost all matches the watch expect for the dial and find watch B with a rojak combination but with the dial which matches watch A and do a dial swap and create the ultimate "untouched" piece and keep the rojak combination piece as a daily beater...
                  if you have issues with your account, click here for self help and read forum rules here. 90% of your answers can be found in Forum FAQ

                  i DO NOT respond to any pm regarding account issues

                  kindly email with
                  1. subject heading indicating your issue
                  2. your nick
                  3. your corresponding email address
                  4. state what you were trying to do and what the system prevented you to do


                  if you receive no response in pm or email, it means your answers can be found in the Forum FAQ here

                  your kind understanding is very much appreciated.

                  disclaimer : all opinions expressed are personal

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by triton View Post
                    with this, do you think it is fair that the assembled 'ultimate' watch be priced as untouched pristine condition watch?
                    Bro, the difficult part is how to tell the difference between the 2? As long as all the changed parts are period correct and original, no one can tell....and definitely not those people in RSC. Also, a newer trip-lock crown is actually better in water resistance than the old twin lock.

                    I think condition matters more in pricing. Then there is the other can of worms regarding whether a nicer looking set of hands is better than those original flaking, rusty ones. The verdict is still out there.

                    Only think for sure is that those luminova Swiss dials and hands (those glowing lumi) are frown upon in vintages.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      yeah. i agree that it is hard to tell. that is why as mentioned in my previous post(s), if the watch is put forth as original condition, how to differentiate. unless there is a accompany receipt for the watch and/or certification bearing the seller name, then can truly tell really original or not.

                      there are many things to look out for and as such my previous posts also highlight that different people have different perceptions and views.

                      Originally posted by KuchingKu View Post
                      Bro, the difficult part is how to tell the difference between the 2? As long as all the changed parts are period correct and original, no one can tell....and definitely not those people in RSC. Also, a newer trip-lock crown is actually better in water resistance than the old twin lock.

                      I think condition matters more in pricing. Then there is the other can of worms regarding whether a nicer looking set of hands is better than those original flaking, rusty ones. The verdict is still out there.

                      Only think for sure is that those luminova Swiss dials and hands (those glowing lumi) are frown upon in vintages.
                      if you have issues with your account, click here for self help and read forum rules here. 90% of your answers can be found in Forum FAQ

                      i DO NOT respond to any pm regarding account issues

                      kindly email with
                      1. subject heading indicating your issue
                      2. your nick
                      3. your corresponding email address
                      4. state what you were trying to do and what the system prevented you to do


                      if you receive no response in pm or email, it means your answers can be found in the Forum FAQ here

                      your kind understanding is very much appreciated.

                      disclaimer : all opinions expressed are personal

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        To me, I perceive a 'true original' as when nothing's changed on the watch.
                        The Crown Of Achievement

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Oceanklassik View Post
                          To me, I perceive a 'true original' as when nothing's changed on the watch.
                          You will almost never find one that is vintage unless it is a one owner old junk piece that is probably not working. Every time it goes servicing, worn out parts in the movement must be change for it to run accurately. One can ensure case not polished, glass/hands/dial/crown not changed...that's about all.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            O I C .. tatz tough then.
                            The Crown Of Achievement

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Thks bro ocean for all the articles. Good read.

                              Vintage really need lots of knowledge beyond me.

                              I think for bigger series, so long all parts are period correct it's correct.
                              After all they produce in batches. Even rolex whack 5513 back to 5512.
                              But the cert must match the case.

                              Those must match original ones are very expensive.
                              Historic pieces like military issued rolex, Pam, pilots...
                              Audemars Piguet Ball Bell&Ross Cartier IWC Longines Omega Panerai Rolex Sinn Tissot

                              Alba Casio Citizen Roox Seiko

                              Wanted to add PP but bo lui

                              Comment

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