TPD calculation

[leoleo]

Hi all,

I am just curious how we can calculate the TPD for winders.

Take for eg the below spec for a specific winder which I got from a site selling winders :

650 TPD - Turning 1 min. stop 12 mins. 18 sec.
750 TPD - Turning 1 min. stop 10 mins. 30 sec.
850 TPD - Turning 1 min. stop 9 mins. 06 sec.
1000 TPD - Turning 1 min. stop 7 mins. 36 sec.


I do not know how the TPD can be acheived with the above spec :

e.g. 650 TPD - Turning 1 min. stop 12 mins. 18 sec

From above, 1 cycle is 1 min + 12 min 18 sec = 60 sec + 738 sec = 798 sec
1 day is 24 hrs which is 86400 sec and that will give you 86400 / 798 = 108.27 cycles(turns per day). So based on the above calculation, how could the watch be winded 650turns in a day ?

Anyone can explain this or show me the correct way of calculation the no. of turns ?

thx

[ShOcKs]

Hi,

IMHO, turning 1 min doesn't mean it is only 1 turn. I am sure there are a few turns in 1 min but not sure how many turns in a min though.

[ten10]

Hi leoleo,

Yes, your calculation and assumption is correct!

To know the approximate TPD, one must know two factors:-
a) The winding sequence
b) The motor RPM

From what you’ve given, we only know the winding sequences programmed for this winder.

Example1
Let’s take the lowest TPD (650) and assume the motor rotates at 10 revolutions per minute.

In this mode, the winding sequence is 1min + 12min 18sec = 13.3min

In one day, there’s 1440min.
Divide 1440 by 13.3min = 108.27
This means that there’ll be approx 108 repeated sequences
Multiply this with 10rpm, you’ll get 1080 TPD

If the manufacturer says 650, then the motor has to rotate approx 6rpm. You can counter-check this. Just use your stop-watch function. If its not, you'll know you've been had.


Example2
Let’s take the highest TPD (1000) and still assume the motor turns at 10RPM

In this sequence, the winder operates 1min and stops for 7min 36sec

1440 divide by (1min + 7min 36sec) = 167 repeats in sequencing
Multiply this figure with 10 = 1670TPD

You hold the key to the answer leoleo. The winder is in your possession. So if you know at what RPM the motor rotates, you can calculate the eventual TPD.

cheers...

[triton]

Yes, you are correct

Hi, IMHO, turning 1 min doesn't mean it is only 1 turn.

This is where you need to calculate the revolutions per minute otherwise known as RotationPerMinute

Hi,

I am sure there are a few turns in 1 min but not sure how many turns in a min though.

[triton]

Now that ten10 has provided the last piece of puzzle, can you share with us your finding?

Anyone can explain this or show me the correct way of calculation the no. of turns ? thx

Hi leoleo, Yes, your calculation and assumption is correct!

To know the approximate TPD, one must know two factors:-
a) The winding sequence
b) The motor RPM

You hold the key to the answer leoleo. The winder is in your possession. So if you know at what RPM the motor rotates, you can calculate the eventual TPD. cheers...

[leoleo]

Thank you all Sg-Roc bros.

Yeah. I forget abt how many turns per cycle.

By the way, I have once bought a winder and I timed and measured the turns per min as well as the intervals. What I ahve timed and measured as below :

1. Measure no. of turns per min e.g no. of turn in 1 min = 10 turns
2. Measure the duration of turning (turn) e.g duration of turning = 2 min
3. Measure the duration of break (stop) e.g duration of break = 16 mins
4. Calculation as below :

1 cycle = 18 mins
1 day = (24 hrs X 60 mins) / 18 mins = 80 cycles
80 cycles = 2 mins X 10 turns X 80 cycles = 1600 turns

so the actual TPD is 1600

The above way of calculating is correct if we want to know exactly if the TPD is as stated ?

thx in advance for all the advice and feedback.

Cheers

[ten10]

As mentioned in my post, its "approximate" becuz it'll also depend on the following factors such as...

- tilt angle (there's a co-relation betwn this angle and the TPD it delivers)
- weight of watches (load factor)
- transistor drivers (power factor)
- motor gears (gear ratio)

The other 4 factors are too technical and so we have to depend on the manufacturer to be upfront with us (as layman) to spell out the TPD. But the basic calculation that you've done is a quick way to know the approx TPD.

Thanks for sharing.

[leoleo]

Thank you ten10

u r really an expert in this.

So in actual fact, can I say that we might not be able to gauge if the TPD specified by the manufacturer is accurate or not ?

As mentioned in my post, its "approximate" becuz it'll also depend on the following factors such as...

- tilt angle (there's a co-relation betwn this angle and the TPD it delivers)
- weight of watches (load factor)
- transistor drivers (power factor)
- motor gears (gear ratio)

The other 4 factors are too technical and so we have to depend on the manufacturer to be upfront with us (as layman) to spell out the TPD. But the basic calculation that you've done is a quick way to know the approx TPD.

Thanks for sharing.

[ten10]

TPD Accuracy depends on...

a few other factors, and I've mentioned 4 of them.

Dun say like dat leh What I've learnt from my past research, I'm just sharing here. However, there're some secrets that I'm bound ethically not to say about the winders.

Let's say calculating the TPD like what you did is close enough. The other factors are for a true manufacturer to work it out to compensate for their range of winders. They know what to do lah.

Be kind to your watches.

Peace out!

[Iceheller]

If it for knowledge, it is good to know the tpd for winder and what is the individual automatic movement recommanded tpd, but to wind your watch when you are not wearing it, you just need to put it on the winder and let it wind alternate day till you wear it next time. Before you ask me if it would spoilt the watch, ask yourself if you continuously wear the watch for a year on your wrist for day and night(without subjecting it to much abuse or torture), would the watch spoilt? Dun subject our brain cells to all this unnecessary marketing gimmick. We already crack our head to buy watch and the last thing is to crack the head again and bleed more from the pocket for the winder. Cheers.

[Axela2012]

Greeting,

I have bought a winder recently. As the winder does not come with the the TPD information, I have done a TPD calculation by myself. Kindly advise whether my calculation is correct.


I have did a timing on the rotation of the winder and observed that in 1 min, the winder rotated 8.5 times.

Below is the various setting of the winder:
Mode 2, Turn clockwise. Rotate for 2 minutes and rest for 6 minutes and then repeat.
Base on calculation, there will in total of 6hr (2/8 X 24hr) of rotation in 1 day. This will make up of 3060 TPD (8.5X360min).

Mode 3, Turn counter clockwise. Rotate for 2 minutes and rest for 6 minutes and then repeat.
Same result

Mode 4, Turn both clockwise and counter clockwise. Rotate for 2 minutes in one direction and then rest for 6 minutes. Rotate for 2 minutes in the opposite direction and then rest for 6 minutes. Repeats above cycle.
Same result

Mode 5, Turn both clockwise and counter clockwise. Rotate for 5 minutes in one direction and then rotates in opposite direction in same 5 minutes. Repeats continuously for 3 hours and then rests for 9 hours. After 9th hour, it will begin rotating above cycle.
Based on calculation for 1 day, the # of Turn Per Day will also be 8.5 X 360min= 3060 TPD

However, understand that according to seller, TPD is only applied to Japan motor whereas, the winder I bought is Germany motor which is based on turn by min instead of # of turn.

Can any expert here help to validate or confirm that? Is it safe for me to continue to use this winder?

Thx

[Axela2012]

By the way, from the link I check below, there is no such thing that a watch can be overwinded. Can this statement be contested?

http://www.watchwinderstore.com/watch/winders.htm#e

Can a watch winder "over-wind" my watch ?

No. Today's automatic watches are almost all manufactured with a mechanism that would dis-engage the winding mechanism once the mainspring is fully wound up. Thus, over-winding should not be a concern. But "over-stressing" should be considered when choosing a winder to wind up your watch. In particular when you use a "watch-spinner" instead of a real electronic programmed automatic watch winder.
In layman's term, over-stress is a result of placing an automatic watch in a winder that winds the watch non-stop, without any rest period in between. With this non-stop process, stress eventually build up. Like any other mechanical parts, over-stress could eventually shorten the useful life of the moving mechanism of a watch. Please read this page for more info on avoiding "over-stressing" your watch.

[teenalow]

I'm seller here I alway believe is not fair for me to give comment on winder buyer will think I'm trying to protect my winder or sell my winder . To sit here and wait for some forum replied why not call the watch manufacture get the right answer from the right person.
Some say this some say that aren't you getting yourself more confuse I'm a women but for all my watch I will call the services centre and check personally. If i call now and post my reply here answer is will you believe what I say?

[teenalow]

Just to share with you this argument about overwind watch
Pls read the last 5 thread on this link about iwc watch overwind you can get a good reply from
Vintagerolex a fair guy who call iwc services centre


http://www.sg-roc.com/threads/71195-...2-rotors/page3

[triton]

to over wind a watch is technically not possible for any watch that has a slipping clutch mechanism.

however, can it over-stress the moving mechanical parts? yes and no.

my friend sells YKK zippers. he told me that customers has asked some really interesting questions on the zippers. one customer ask, how much force can be exerted on the pull tab before the pull tab is dislodge. another customer ask how many times can the pull tab be move up and down before zipper is no longer usable. he called YKK zipper and they gave him the answers.

as with moving parts, there will always be a stress point before the item is no longer usable. with reference to this thread, there are more than 1 person indicating that there should not be additional pressure to increase the wear and tear.

the purpose of the slipping clutch to prevent ACCIDENTAL winding. it is not built for the purpose of prolong engagement of the slipping clutch. the purpose of a watch winder is to allow a watch to be moving constantly so that when a user wants to use the watch, the user does not need to adjust the time. it is mainly for convenience.

each watch has a recommended TPD. why is there a need for this recommended TPD? this is to allow the watch to be wound up and have an X amount of power reserve to keep the watch parts moving. if a watch has a recommended TPD of 650 and if the watch is placed on a winder that gives the watch 3000 TPD, then what does it mean? it means that the watch is constantly being given additional power which it does not need. so how is this additional power going to be dissipated? the slipping clutch to release additional power? if this is the case, then the prolong and constant use of slipping clutch will wear out? if the slipping clutch is not meant to release the additional power, then what happens to the watch movement with just a holding capacity of X amount of power reserve?

my challenge to thread starter is this, if you are in doubt, dont use it. unless the seller of the product is going to guarantee you in black and white that if your watch's slipping clutch is damaged as a result of your watch being kept on the winder for extended period of time, they will bear the cost of repair if you feel is reasonable, then get it. personally, i would never want to take a risk for my beloved watches.

if the parts are constantly being oiled and the watch being serviced, the chances of over stressing is slightly better. also, unless one is going to place a watch on a winder for 365/7/24, the chances is lesser but not zero for over-stressing the parts.

By the way, from the link I check below, there is no such thing that a watch can be overwinded. Can this statement be contested?

http://www.watchwinderstore.com/watch/winders.htm#e

Can a watch winder "over-wind" my watch ?

No. Today's automatic watches are almost all manufactured with a mechanism that would dis-engage the winding mechanism once the mainspring is fully wound up. Thus, over-winding should not be a concern. But "over-stressing" should be considered when choosing a winder to wind up your watch. In particular when you use a "watch-spinner" instead of a real electronic programmed automatic watch winder.
In layman's term, over-stress is a result of placing an automatic watch in a winder that winds the watch non-stop, without any rest period in between. With this non-stop process, stress eventually build up. Like any other mechanical parts, over-stress could eventually shorten the useful life of the moving mechanism of a watch. Please read this page for more info on avoiding "over-stressing" your watch.