Panerai Price Dropping!

[exxondus]

I am bored

go watch hunting

Saw a EZM1 for sale at visiotime today. too bad no Vit M haiz...

i oso sianz...staring at SGROC at home waiting for new posts.....I don have a life!!!

[edsonchan]

I just bought a PAM312 and sold it away.

Then I got myself a GMT II Ceramic...

Looking for a big pilot now! Feel like buying a BR01-94

[Fred_Tan]

Read my post before you reply

erhm, thats why i say depends on mkt. like singapore seem to be saturated on Rolexs and some PAM models thats why price is dropping.

Since you mo.......... a fact hard to be pushed down regardless of what grey dealers say. In the long run, as more grey dealers start turning to PAM since ROLEX no longer gives them the same profit margin, the same thing will eventually happen in that country. Worldwide is of cos a different story.

You obviously didn't read my post....so let me reiterate my points...

You obviously think PAM is just 312 with a few more models as your discussion is only centred on this model. WRONG thought.

312 price never gone down.
They merely went up to 12k due to speculation when it was released in the mart in Apr-09 and is now stabilized at 8.8k.

Consider that most ppl got their 312 at 9.5k at average, this is still not bad.
I mean, if he/she are forced to sell his 312 now after wearing it for few mths, he only lose SGD1k - 1.5k maybe? That's less than 20% loss, right?

Can we say the same thing for other brand? NOOOO!!!!
Try getting any IWC, Rolex, AP & PP & we'll you losing much more with 40 and even 60% and no1 will even bat an eyelid.

The discussion of this thread is weather Panerai price has dropped.
My answer is YES & NO.

YES, select models like 24, 25, 88, 90, 104 & 164 are still dropping due to 312, 320, 305 & 321 release.
But they will recover in time as SWATCH group will not allow decoration on ETA7750-P1 mvmt from 2016 and Panerai will be forced to either discontinue these models or use ETA ebouche as it is which is impossible as it will not be COSC certifiable.

YES, 0, 5, 26K, 28L, 111, 112, 176, 177, 219, 233, 268, 270, 276, 292K, 306, 309, 316 & 322 has dropped slightly (<20%) from Oct-08 to Jun-09 and had stabilized in mid-09 and has now started to climb again since Sep-09.
This drop is much less when compared to PP Nautilus, AP ROO, Rolex.

NO, you forget that 2/56, 3646s, 6152s, 6154, Mare, 201s, 301, 1B-T, 2B-T, 4, 9, 16, 21, 22B-T, 23, 26B-T, 28B-T, 56, 115, 117, 123, 127, 239, 292J, 301 and soon to be 317, 332 & 341 has never drop, period.
And they are now starting to appreciate again since Sep-09.

Select AP models like ROO EOD, T3, Alinghis & RBs dropped slightly <10% between Oct-08 to Jun-09 and has begin to recover in Sep-09. Other AP models price is still sliding due to design that's not popular has yet to find bottom of their pricing

PP 5711/1A, 5712/1A, 5980/1A has dropped by 35-60% from their peak in Sep-09. These 3 models have found the bottom in Jun-09 due to it's rarity, history & design and had started to gain value again since Sep-09

Apart from economics which is not under watch industry control, watch model & brand popularity, value, appreciation depends on 5 vital factors that're within the watchmakers' control:
1) Marketing
2) Rarity
3) Design
4) Technology
5) History

AP, PP & OP has all of the above & in controlling these factors tightly as it's their rice bowl.

Rolex who thinks they are Swiss govt missed out on factor number 2) Rarity when they got greedy and made 3 million watches per year in 2008.
Who's at fault when they made 10k units of 116520 Black per mth between 2007 and 2009?
Is it my fault? No.
Is it the you the consumer's fault? No.
Is it the AD's fault? No.
Is it PAP fault? No.
It is George Bush / Alan Greenspan / Tim Geitner / Madoff / Osama fault? No.
It's all Rolex own greed that's e cause of Ex2, GMT2c, DSSD, Milgauss, Sub-Date & Daytona's unending slide along with the non-sports model.

Panerai has reduced the number of watches from 30k to 20k from 2008 to 2009 by slowing & reducing the production and if it's too late, the release of select models to the mart.
Just imagine that some model still have not run outta J series which is 2007 production...it's obvious to any obiang like me that they know no one like certain model like 48, 113, 114, 212 & 213s.

AP had done the same for all ROOs in 2009.
PP had reduced the number of Nautilus from 2000 piece in 2008 to just 700 this year.

What about Rolex?
They open 5 more buildings that's unmark bringing the total to 50 and increase the production 2.7 in 08 to 3 million watches in 2009.
They even farmed out their parts mfg to China now.
They even try to cheat by introducing randomized serials number and using the same serials for different models right now now to mask this severe over-production when they started V-series.

No watch owner in their sane mind would want to see their watch to have more & more production number year-on-year.
And, no Swiss watch buyer would want to see their brand with any China parts.
Hublot tried it on BIG Bang and they got banged.

Rolex along with TAG & Omega had all forgotten that the generation MTV & Strawberry who are approaching our 20 to 40 years of age are taking over as the only consumer who are willing to pay for a watch these days. Our father & mother who are Generation X are no longer into watches as they are more concerned bout other priorities like retirement, healthcare & etc.

Our generation only want something that no1 else is wearing.
Gone are the days when my dad goes to a wedding banquet to find 7 of his fren wearing the same 1680 in e same reception.
Gone r the days when my granddad & 3 of my granduncles wouldn't mind visiting my great-grand parents wearing the same 5513.
Some went to their graves in Melaka wearing the same 5513.

These ppl are all dead, dying or outta $ due to over-ageing....they dun even have $ to pay Rolex Service Ctr SGD1,200 to full service their pitted case for goodness sake & I had to pay em.

Rolex had severely over estimate its branding power on the new generation M & S who want's to be exclusive.
I dun wan to wear e AP ROO Safari that my boss is wearing even when it's my fav must have item.
I dun wan to wear e Calatrava that my cousin is flashing around.
I dun wan to be seen in a Big Pilot cause my colleague in my office was dumb enough to get 1 last mth when he know's I already have one.

So, greed killed Rolex. Not grey-traders. Not me. We never make much. We never flood e mart.
Milgauss, DSSD, GMT2c and Daytona's new & pre-owned drop is not due to grey mart dealer. Grey mart has no control on rarity....we merely plug the mart gap to fill the demand with few pieces here & there to make our AD happi.
We cannot cause shortage any shortage will create a dynamic demand that will spur other grey traders opportunity to fill the gap very fast.

if we are what you accuse us of, they we would have killed AP & OP 10 yrs ago...

And, myself are Rolex fan & I am not putting any blame on Rolex.
I never profit from Rolex.
I only brought into Spore less than 5 pieces of Rolex in last 3 years and none of them are earning me one single cent of profit even when I sell em as BNIB for that matter.
I just need to maintain my sales of USD600k per annum per AD by taking in some Rolex to ensure I'm always No#1 in their list for AP & OP new models.

You're obviously making false & baseless accusations.
You're barking at e wrong tree.
And, you're off-topic.
Worst, you dun even know Panerai to speak about it.
You only know 312, it seems

Other traders like YKC brought in less than 30 piece of Rolex in last 3 years.
All in all, grey traders brought into SG less than 200 pieces of Rolex in last 3 years.
We are not the cause of Rolex failure cause we cannot possibly fight AD who brought in 30,000 pieces of Rolex a year into Spore.

I can assure you, all the grey traders here are not making one single cent from Rolex since 2006. We r just taking these Rolex to fulfill our qouta with the ADs to maintain relationships for other brands purchase.

In fact, starting from 2007, you can clearly see that our Rolex pricing is low as we r only keen to minimize losses asap by disposing fast.

You obviously ignorant and are only shooting off your mouth with no facts.

Rolex has only emself to blame for over-producing and over-mart worldwide.
And we, the grey traders have no power to ask Rolex to over-produce.

Fact of the matter, Panerai remains the only brand where most of its model like 2/56, 3646s, 6152s, 6154, Mare, 201s, 301, 1B-T, 2B-T, 4, 9, 16, 21, 22B-T, 23, 26B-T, 28B-T, 56, 115, 117, 123, 127, 239, 292J, 301 and soon to be 317, 332 & 341 are not affected by this downturn.

Fact number#2, models like 0, 5, 111, 112, 176, 177, 219, 233, 270 & 292K had dropped only slightly (<10%) in this downturn when compared to other brands current model like AP ROO, Rolex sports model & PP Nautilus which dropped between (20-60%) and they have started to appreciate again recently with the exception of Rolex which is still falling into oblivion.

You're obviously missing the point here...

Anyway, all this talk about price dropping is bull****.
A person who really luv e watch & brand couldn't give a hoot to pricing.
From my regular buyers who seriously play AP, OP & PP dun care bout price....

[edsonchan]

You obviously didn't read my post....so let me reiterate my points...

You obviously think PAM is just 312 with a few more models as your discussion is only centred on this model. WRONG thought.

312 price never gone down.
They merely went up to 12k due to speculation when it was released in the mart in Apr-09 and is now stabilized at 8.8k.

Consider that most ppl got their 312 at 9.5k at average, this is still not bad.
I mean, if he/she are forced to sell his 312 now after wearing it for few mths, he only lose SGD1k - 1.5k maybe? That's less than 20% loss, right?

Can we say the same thing for other brand? NOOOO!!!!
Try getting any IWC, Rolex, AP & PP & we'll you losing much more with 40 and even 60% and no1 will even bat an eyelid.

The discussion of this thread is weather Panerai price has dropped.
My answer is YES & NO.

YES, select models like 24, 25, 88, 90, 104 & 164 are still dropping due to 312, 320, 305 & 321 release.
But they will recover in time as SWATCH group will not allow decoration on ETA7750-P1 mvmt from 2016 and Panerai will be forced to either discontinue these models or use ETA ebouche as it is which is impossible as it will not be COSC certifiable.

YES, 0, 5, 26K, 28L, 111, 112, 176, 177, 219, 233, 268, 270, 276, 292K, 306, 309, 316 & 322 has dropped slightly (<20%) from Oct-08 to Jun-09 and had stabilized in mid-09 and has now started to climb again since Sep-09.
This drop is much less when compared to PP Nautilus, AP ROO, Rolex.

NO, you forget that 2/56, 3646s, 6152s, 6154, Mare, 201s, 301, 1B-T, 2B-T, 4, 9, 16, 21, 22B-T, 23, 26B-T, 28B-T, 56, 115, 117, 123, 127, 239, 292J, 301 and soon to be 317, 332 & 341 has never drop, period.
And they are now starting to appreciate again since Sep-09.

Select AP models like ROO EOD, T3, Alinghis & RBs dropped slightly <10% between Oct-08 to Jun-09 and has begin to recover in Sep-09. Other AP models price is still sliding due to design that's not popular has yet to find bottom of their pricing

PP 5711/1A, 5712/1A, 5980/1A has dropped by 35-60% from their peak in Sep-09. These 3 models have found the bottom in Jun-09 due to it's rarity, history & design and had started to gain value again since Sep-09

Apart from economics which is not under watch industry control, watch model & brand popularity, value, appreciation depends on 5 vital factors that're within the watchmakers' control:
1) Marketing
2) Rarity
3) Design
4) Technology
5) History

AP, PP & OP has all of the above & in controlling these factors tightly as it's their rice bowl.

Rolex who thinks they are Swiss govt missed out on factor number 2) Rarity when they got greedy and made 3 million watches per year in 2008.
Who's at fault when they made 10k units of 116520 Black per mth between 2007 and 2009?
Is it my fault? No.
Is it the you the consumer's fault? No.
Is it the AD's fault? No.
Is it PAP fault? No.
It is George Bush / Alan Greenspan / Tim Geitner / Madoff / Osama fault? No.
It's all Rolex own greed that's e cause of Ex2, GMT2c, DSSD, Milgauss, Sub-Date & Daytona's unending slide along with the non-sports model.

Panerai has reduced the number of watches from 30k to 20k from 2008 to 2009 by slowing & reducing the production and if it's too late, the release of select models to the mart.
Just imagine that some model still have not run outta J series which is 2007 production...it's obvious to any obiang like me that they know no one like certain model like 48, 113, 114, 212 & 213s.

AP had done the same for all ROOs in 2009.
PP had reduced the number of Nautilus from 2000 piece in 2008 to just 700 this year.

What about Rolex?
They open 5 more buildings that's unmark bringing the total to 50 and increase the production 2.7 in 08 to 3 million watches in 2009.
They even farmed out their parts mfg to China now.
They even try to cheat by introducing randomized serials number and using the same serials for different models right now now to mask this severe over-production when they started V-series.

No watch owner in their sane mind would want to see their watch to have more & more production number year-on-year.
And, no Swiss watch buyer would want to see their brand with any China parts.
Hublot tried it on BIG Bang and they got banged.

Rolex along with TAG & Omega had all forgotten that the generation MTV & Strawberry who are approaching our 20 to 40 years of age are taking over as the only consumer who are willing to pay for a watch these days. Our father & mother who are Generation X are no longer into watches as they are more concerned bout other priorities like retirement, healthcare & etc.

Our generation only want something that no1 else is wearing.
Gone are the days when my dad goes to a wedding banquet to find 7 of his fren wearing the same 1680 in e same reception.
Gone r the days when my granddad & 3 of my granduncles wouldn't mind visiting my great-grand parents wearing the same 5513.
Some went to their graves in Melaka wearing the same 5513.

These ppl are all dead, dying or outta $ due to over-ageing....they dun even have $ to pay Rolex Service Ctr SGD1,200 to full service their pitted case for goodness sake & I had to pay em.

Rolex had severely over estimate its branding power on the new generation M & S who want's to be exclusive.
I dun wan to wear e AP ROO Safari that my boss is wearing even when it's my fav must have item.
I dun wan to wear e Calatrava that my cousin is flashing around.
I dun wan to be seen in a Big Pilot cause my colleague in my office was dumb enough to get 1 last mth when he know's I already have one.

So, greed killed Rolex. Not grey-traders. Not me. We never make much. We never flood e mart.
Milgauss, DSSD, GMT2c and Daytona's new & pre-owned drop is not due to grey mart dealer. Grey mart has no control on rarity....we merely plug the mart gap to fill the demand with few pieces here & there to make our AD happi.
We cannot cause shortage any shortage will create a dynamic demand that will spur other grey traders opportunity to fill the gap very fast.

if we are what you accuse us of, they we would have killed AP & OP 10 yrs ago...

And, myself are Rolex fan & I am not putting any blame on Rolex.
I never profit from Rolex.
I only brought into Spore less than 5 pieces of Rolex in last 3 years and none of them are earning me one single cent of profit even when I sell em as BNIB for that matter.
I just need to maintain my sales of USD600k per annum per AD by taking in some Rolex to ensure I'm always No#1 in their list for AP & OP new models.

You're obviously making false & baseless accusations.
You're barking at e wrong tree.
And, you're off-topic.
Worst, you dun even know Panerai to speak about it.
You only know 312, it seems

Other traders like YKC brought in less than 30 piece of Rolex in last 3 years.
All in all, grey traders brought into SG less than 200 pieces of Rolex in last 3 years.
We are not the cause of Rolex failure cause we cannot possibly fight AD who brought in 30,000 pieces of Rolex a year into Spore.

I can assure you, all the grey traders here are not making one single cent from Rolex since 2006. We r just taking these Rolex to fulfill our qouta with the ADs to maintain relationships for other brands purchase.

In fact, starting from 2007, you can clearly see that our Rolex pricing is low as we r only keen to minimize losses asap by disposing fast.

You obviously ignorant and are only shooting off your mouth with no facts.

Rolex has only emself to blame for over-producing and over-mart worldwide.
And we, the grey traders have no power to ask Rolex to over-produce.

Fact of the matter, Panerai remains the only brand where most of its model like 2/56, 3646s, 6152s, 6154, Mare, 201s, 301, 1B-T, 2B-T, 4, 9, 16, 21, 22B-T, 23, 26B-T, 28B-T, 56, 115, 117, 123, 127, 239, 292J, 301 and soon to be 317, 332 & 341 are not affected by this downturn.

Fact number#2, models like 0, 5, 111, 112, 176, 177, 219, 233, 270 & 292K had dropped only slightly (<10%) in this downturn when compared to other brands current model like AP ROO, Rolex sports model & PP Nautilus which dropped between (20-60%) and they have started to appreciate again recently with the exception of Rolex which is still falling into oblivion.

You're obviously missing the point here...

Anyway, all this talk about price dropping is bull****.
A person who really luv e watch & brand couldn't give a hoot to pricing.
From my regular buyers who seriously play AP, OP & PP dun care bout price....

POWER!!!!!!
SALUTE

[edsonchan]

What Fred say is true.

A lot of my friends cannot be bothered about prices when buying watch.

I bought my GMT II c at THG at $9599 didn't care much as well. Maybe I am stupid.

This is a crazy hobby.

[Dmaul77]

Interesting read that really puts things into prospective.

Cheers

[SUBMARINER]

What Fred say is true.

A lot of my friends cannot be bothered about prices when buying watch.

I bought my GMT II c at THG at $9599 didn't care much as well. Maybe I am stupid.

This is a crazy hobby.

This is not hobby. This is disease!

[Democritus]

I am amazed that all of you are arguing over these.....

Please go back to a few basis...

1. Buying a watch should never be based on what appreciates, holds value and depreciates.....if you are interested in this go buy shares, house etc! Don't spoilt the essence of the hobby.

2. Views from a dealer/trader must always be taken with a hugh pinch of salt cos they have vested interest....similar to my property agent who always tells me its a good time to buy a house! They always have some insider knowledge or some theory.

End of day, buy what you like.

PS: For Fred, before you use the names of some other people (Babka, BigB, TomB, Kennteth and Richard) and claimed that they take certain stand, have you sought their permission? Pls do cos I know some of them pretty well and they will not like it.

[Paneraii]

Fred's articles serve as a good read which is another perspective. This make forum " happening "

Without grey dealers, I don't think I can have a chance to smell and feel a Pam 0, 5, 26, 219, 233, and more 'special' models. Mind you, these are current models that seem so far-fetched at times.

[Fred_Tan]

I know them too...

I am amazed that all of you are arguing over these.....

Please go back to a few basis...

1. Buying a watch should never be based on what appreciates, holds value and depreciates.....if you are interested in this go buy shares, house etc! Don't spoilt the essence of the hobby.

2. Views from a dealer/trader must always be taken with a hugh pinch of salt cos they have vested interest....similar to my property agent who always tells me its a good time to buy a house! They always have some insider knowledge or some theory.

End of day, buy what you like.

PS: For Fred, before you use the names of some other people (Babka, BigB, TomB, Kennteth and Richard) and claimed that they take certain stand, have you sought their permission? Pls do cos I know some of them pretty well and they will not like it.

We are pretty close....qoute me to them if you want.
I did nothing wrong to them.
I merely speak out to those of you out there who think we the grey trader always make $ of every deal.
We are always thought off as ppl who will go all out to cheat innocent buyers with our lies.

I don't think Richard, James, Kenneth, Barry, Kim Choy, William & etc will complain about my statements here.

[Democritus]

Fred's articles serve as a good read which is another perspective. This make forum " happening "

Without grey dealers, I don't think I can have a chance to smell and feel a Pam 0, 5, 26, 219, 233, and more 'special' models. Mind you, these are current models that seem so far-fetched at times.

Agree. Like you said, it's another perspective. Some die-hard Rolex fans have oher perspectives too.

For me, I am more of a Pam fan than Rolex. With some PP and AP and IWC.

Don't know if they are losing money or not cos some I won't sell. Others if I sell, its cos I want get something else. So if time are bad, sell low buy low....if market good, then sell high also buy high.

I even sold off all my Pams cos at one time preferred smaller dressy pieces but still creep back to Pam cos some models are just too beautiful not to have and wear.

Verdict...buy what you like and can afford (regardless of brands). Buy a Pam if you like it and enjoy wearing it....not because it holds value. Same for rolex or even any other brands

[Democritus]

Sure

We are pretty close....qoute me to them if you want.
I did nothing wrong to them.
I merely speak out to those of you out there who think we the grey trader always make $ of every deal.
We are always thought off as ppl who will go all out to cheat innocent buyers with our lies.

I don't think Richard, James, Kenneth, Barry, Kim Choy, William & etc will complain about my statements here.

I agree with you that grey traders are like Mee pok sellers....sure need to make money and take some risk too. I also don't think traders cheat others...as least not those that I know.

It's always willing buyer, willing seller.

I also did not say you did them wrong just that you made a stand on their behalf.

I have bought pieces from almost all the dealers you mentioned for a long time so will bring up your good defense of them when I kopi with anyone of them next time.

Cheers

[Fred_Tan]

Well, one more thing...

If no $, dun buy...

No one force you to buy from anyone including me.
If you don't like me, dun buy from me.
If you don't like grey traders, dun buy from us.
We could be uttering lies to convince u.

Buy from ADs as they dun ever lie.
ADs are not making $.
Only grey traders are making $.

Dun buy Panerai.
Dun buy AP.
Dun buy PP.
Dump OP, AP & PP and all other brands so that Rolex will be the only brand.

Buy only Rolex from ADs.
Rolex is good for value retention.
All pawnshop take Rolex without any question.
Rolex is high in quality that no one can ever beat. Not even Grand Seiko come close.

Rolex is the best watch in e world.
Any1 that buy any other watch other than Rolex is a moron.

Peng Kwee has high trade in value for all ur Rolexes.

ADs are the best.
They treat every Tom, Dick & Sally that walk into it like King & Queen.
They treat every1 great even when you haggle for half an hour with em over a SGD1,400 TAG for ur gf / mistress.

Dun ever buy from me or any grey trader.

All Spore AD & all AD worldwide will make sure they call every1 of u 1st when they get any 341L, 317L, 292J, 28L, 332L, 26K, 249I, 232I, 217H, 127E & etc when you have only bought a measly SGD1500 U1 from them....

Yeah sure.....bash us grey traders all u want.
Call us names....whatever.

Dun come begging us for ur 292J, 232, 249, 219, 217 & 127s...
When 317 is released in Apr next year, dun even come near us.

Didn't u guys buy from YKC, Kenneth, William & Richard all e "cooked", "inflated" & "overpriced" PAM127 for SGD9k, 12k, 15k, 17k, 21k, 25k....
Didn't u all bought e 217s for 12k, 15k, 17k, 21k from us... and again it's over-prized, right?
Did u buy ur AP ROO EOD for SGD35k from one of us & it's very very expensive & exhorbitant profit.
Did u buy ur AP ROO T3 for SGD51k from one of us not too long ago is it's so expensive.

We sell no one here in Spore any DBS, HSBC, HLB, UOB, GEL & Prudential High Notes or Pinnacle Notes.....We are not your Bernie Madoff.

If our service & price is high, so dun buy from us.
Ban us from SG-ROC.
Ban me.
Ban us all from all forums for that matter.

[Democritus]

Cool it bro.

Hopefully I was not the one who insinuated or implied anything onto you cos I definitely didn't start commenting with you in mind.

Back to topic.

I maintain my stand that yes..Panerai prices may have dropped for some models but that's the same for all other brands in this economic situation.

[ohlins]

yes gentlemen,

feel free to disagree .... with each other's opinions......

in the end, it's a free market.... for buyers and sellers alike

cheers