Experimenting with independents - an inevitable watch collecting journey?

[pegasi]

Thanks for clarifying your definition, James.

While I might sound like I was questioning the wisdom of spending on those brands, I fully understand and respect that watch collecting is a thing of irrational passion and that the collectors of all stuffs are intrigued by exclusivity/personalization and want to be unique.

My "challenge" to you guys to convince me that this route to non-mainstream independents make sense, is a measured one with two purposes behind. First, a selfish one to enable myself to understand what I have missed; second, to get people (me inclusive) digging into beyond a few web posts and explore what really are in it and see if it is for them.

Being a Gemini, the sensibility and rationality in me are constantly fighting against each other. At the end of the day, the depth of my pocket has the final say as far as watch purchases are concerned. And yes, $10k+ for a watch is expensive for me although I do own watches that cost that much.

Finally, thanks for starting this discussion, which lead me to visit, albeit on paper and very briefly, THAT part of the journey I had heard of but would otherwise not go to

Cheers.

[wolfeyes1974]

Thanks for clarifying your definition, James.

While I might sound like I was questioning the wisdom of spending on those brands, I fully understand and respect that watch collecting is a thing of irrational passion and that the collectors of all stuffs are intrigued by exclusivity/personalization and want to be unique.

My "challenge" to you guys to convince me that this route to non-mainstream independents make sense, is a measured one with two purposes behind. First, a selfish one to enable myself to understand what I have missed; second, to get people (me inclusive) digging into beyond a few web posts and explore what really are in it and see if it is for them.

Being a Gemini, the sensibility and rationality in me are constantly fighting against each other. At the end of the day, the depth of my pocket has the final say as far as watch purchases are concerned. And yes, $10k+ for a watch is expensive for me although I do own watches that cost that much.

Finally, thanks for starting this discussion, which lead me to visit, albeit on paper and very briefly, THAT part of the journey I had heard of but would otherwise not go to

Cheers.

actually your "challenge" is the question I was trying to get an answer....I'm not sure if this is a natural progression if one has owned and tested many brands...what comes next? : )

[Chris777]

my 2 cents worth.

I always buy a watch I enjoy but affordability and resale is always in my mind. You never know when the day will come when circumtances requires to raise some money for housing, renovation, sickness etc... so to me, able to offload and not lose that much money is key.

I started off with Rolex explorer and along the way, I have collected and sold ; Rolex16570, 1655, 1680, 1675, 16710, Lange Sohne, GO perpetual calendar, Omega speedmaster..... and today, I have only 1675, AP RO,Patek 5065, Omega Speedmaster.

I realised that after a full circle, simplicity of the watch is still the best. Im enjoying the Patek 5065 alot and the value seem to hold alot better. Im gunning for the 5711, another simple but yet outstanding piece.

cheers!

[Tricolore]

Real independent brands = members of AHCI? That's an interesting way of defining independent brands but I don't think that's exactly what James meant although some of the brands he mentioned are AHCI members. And I have difficulty understanding why only AHCI members are considered as "real" independent brands by you. While most of those independent brands are small non-industrialized watchmakers producing very good watches in small scale, there is also brand under the AHCI like FP Journe that has grown relatively big with boutique in a number of cities, so they are not all of the same type.

Of the 3 names that you mentioned, the Voutilainen and Dufour are of a different and higher league than the PSM, but even the former 2 are not comparable to the like of PP in terms of make and quality. Among the attributes you opined, exclusivity on a brand level is probably the only thing that you cannot get in the mainstrain high-end manufacturers. For the price of a Voutilainen and Dufour, I could get a JLC Duomètre à Quantième Lunaire in which all parts are hand finished.

Speaking of being respected in the horological world...I am not sure which horological world you belong to, but in the small watch community I live in, I am pretty certain this Duomètre à Quantième Lunaire from my beloved brand will gain me immense respect and many praises. The hard-to-pronounce brand name and model name, like those of many independent brands, could yet play a part

I agree with you, Pegasi bro, on certain points that you have pointed out. As someone who likes watches (and JLC, especially), I wish I could get my hands on either the JLC Duomètre à Quantième Lunaire/ JLC Reverso Gyrotourbillion 2/ A. Lange and Sohne Datograph. They are simply amazing pieces of work.

But then again, some collectors want to be special and different. Hence, they go for brands like Dufour, Kari, Greubel Forsey, MB&F, DeBethune or Vianney Halter. They want something different. Yes, a JLC Duomètre à Quantième Lunaire is not something that is accessible to many, but to some collectors, these brands do not dare to be different; they still to the "safer side" and are unwilling to go controversial for their designs. Which is something that the independents can do. Would would dare to come out with somethign that is as outrageous and bold as MB&F's HM, or Vianney's Deep Space Tourbillion?

Relationship between the watchmakers and clients (like what you have mentioned) is probably another reason too. As their products are considered "niche" in this industry, it allows clients and watchmakers to have a closer relationship, which makes the former feels "important". This allows the clients to enjoy personalised watches, latest information, and perhaps better ownership experiences that they may be unable to enjoy from the "bigger" watch companies.

With regards to respect, of course the JLC that you have mentioned would garner plenty of respect from collectors here. But the kind of respect that I am talking about here is different. Rather, I respect these collectors for being bold and different, for venturing into something unorthodox that we would not dare to try. And nope, the watch community is bigger than you think. Try venturing out into international forums (e.g. WatchuSeek, PuristS). I enjoy viewing these forums too; they gave me a greater perspective and insights on watch collecting, which can be very interesting and radical at times

[pegasi]

I agree with you, Pegasi bro, on certain points that you have pointed out. As someone who likes watches (and JLC, especially), I wish I could get my hands on either the JLC Duomètre à Quantième Lunaire/ JLC Reverso Gyrotourbillion 2/ A. Lange and Sohne Datograph. They are simply amazing pieces of work.

But then again, some collectors want to be special and different. Hence, they go for brands like Dufour, Kari, Greubel Forsey, MB&F, DeBethune or Vianney Halter. They want something different. Yes, a JLC Duomètre à Quantième Lunaire is not something that is accessible to many, but to some collectors, these brands do not dare to be different; they still to the "safer side" and are unwilling to go controversial for their designs. Which is something that the independents can do. Would would dare to come out with somethign that is as outrageous and bold as MB&F's HM, or Vianney's Deep Space Tourbillion?

Relationship between the watchmakers and clients (like what you have mentioned) is probably another reason too. As their products are considered "niche" in this industry, it allows clients and watchmakers to have a closer relationship, which makes the former feels "important". This allows the clients to enjoy personalised watches, latest information, and perhaps better ownership experiences that they may be unable to enjoy from the "bigger" watch companies.

With regards to respect, of course the JLC that you have mentioned would garner plenty of respect from collectors here. But the kind of respect that I am talking about here is different. Rather, I respect these collectors for being bold and different, for venturing into something unorthodox that we would not dare to try. And nope, the watch community is bigger than you think. Try venturing out into international forums (e.g. WatchuSeek, PuristS). I enjoy viewing these forums too; they gave me a greater perspective and insights on watch collecting, which can be very interesting and radical at times

Of course I am aware that there is a global watch community. I believe I started visiting/
lurking around the international forums/blogs etc earlier than you did (and I still do). The reason I am not actively sharing in those forums is that I prefer to do that in a community I actually live in (I use this same word "live" in my earlier response), where I have the possibility to meet and befriend some of the like-minded watch lovers. I never feel a need to impress people in the other part of the world.

From what I read, you aspire to own those independent brands mainly in order to be different, to be respected (in the cyber world of horology?) and feel important, which really disappoint me. A young man like you should strive to be different in a way which you can contribute, and gain respect through what you do, not what you wear. Not saying those reasons for owning watches are wrong (in case I get flamed, just disappointed to hear them from you...

[Tricolore]

Of course I am aware that there is a global watch community. I believe I started visiting/
lurking around the international forums/blogs etc earlier than you did (and I still do). The reason I am not actively sharing in those forums is that I prefer to do that in a community I actually live in (I use this same word "live" in my earlier response), where I have the possibility to meet and befriend some of the like-minded watch lovers. I never feel a need to impress people in the other part of the world.

From what I read, you aspire to own those independent brands mainly in order to be different, to be respected (in the cyber world of horology?) and feel important, which really disappoint me. A young man like you should strive to be different in a way which you can contribute, and gain respect through what you do, not what you wear. Not saying those reasons for owning watches are wrong (in case I get flamed, just disappointed to hear them from you...

Ah, I guess you have misinterpreted what I have written. What I meant was I respected these collectors for being different, but I did not mention that my quest for going into Indies in to gain attention and respect. Yes, I want to be different from the others, and it ends here. I want to enjoy something special and exclusive that people does not have; I want to be unique. That is why I want to go Indies (but my wallet says otherwise).

Your worries and disappointed are unwarranted in this case. Hahaha

[pegasi]

Ah, I guess you have misinterpreted what I have written. What I meant was I respected these collectors for being different, but I did not mention that my quest for going into Indies in to gain attention and respect. Yes, I want to be different from the others, and it ends here. I want to enjoy something special and exclusive that people does not have; I want to be unique. That is why I want to go Indies (but my wallet says otherwise).

Your worries and disappointed are unwarranted in this case. Hahaha

I am glad I misinterpreted.

My apologies.

[taxico]

...I will continue to enjoy my Rolex and Omega and Seiko and the likes…

may i ask why do you collect the brands/pieces you have/had?

[Ed.YEO]

...For some of the members here who amassed a large/impressive collection over the years, do you feel that this is an inevitable part of the journey or do you still prefer to take a safer bet and buy more mainstream brands? Do you wish to experiment independent brands and start afresh (beginning with entry level models and eventually "upgrade" along the way)?...

I don't have an "impressive" collection to talk about.
However, what i see today is "history... is made to sell". The good old reputation on after sales service and watch serviceability comes with a cost that cannot compare to our fathers time or our school time before. Today's brand, is about how low their watches can be made, and yield high returns. Service attitudes differs on different environment, in different countries.
We're hearing or seeing more and more scary stories on after sales support/service either from big groups, or from prestige brands. It's either we can conclude whether these companies' objectives are just to sell, or give in more effort in retaining customers trusts/support to the brands...

Personally... for the sake of the hobby, for the sake of future service costs worries... i shall stick to lower maintenance cost grades movements for the moment ... until i'm ready for the next big leap...

[mew]

It's not inevitable but some would explore independents along their journey.
I have only tried more affordable independents like Nomos but they just aren't for me.

Servicing is one big headache and unfortunately the odds of independent manufacturers closing down within my lifetime is a lot higher than that of an established brand. If that happens, who/where am I going to approach to service/source parts for my timepiece?

I had a 1970s Omega fully restored by Bienne a few years back and they still have parts for it. Thus, I'll stick to my "common" Rolex & Omega, brands that are known to store parts at least 20 years.

Besides, with their annual production numbers, I'm sure I would be able to source parts elsewhere even if they no longer have them.

[triton]

you have touch on a very important issue for many watch collectors - servicing costs. it is also part of the reason why i am still holding back on some brands.

Personally... for the sake of the hobby, for the sake of future service costs worries... i shall stick to lower maintenance cost grades movements for the moment ... until i'm ready for the next big leap...

[triton]

another important point raised. that was one of my fear when i first wanted to get an independent brand watch. however, after almost a decade, the company is still around. so i am not sure if i should jump in now. besides the possibility of the brand not continuing, the servicing cost is another concern.

Servicing is one big headache and unfortunately the odds of independent manufacturers closing down within my lifetime is a lot higher than that of an established brand. If that happens, who/where am I going to approach to service/source parts for my timepiece?

[wolfeyes1974]

another important point raised. that was one of my fear when i first wanted to get an independent brand watch. however, after almost a decade, the company is still around. so i am not sure if i should jump in now. besides the possibility of the brand not continuing, the servicing cost is another concern.

Yes this will always be a fear at the back of our minds...

[pegasi]

may i ask why do you collect the brands/pieces you have/had?

Because I can hardly afford a PP, AP, or VC

By the way I am no collector of watches. I know what you are getting at, but there is a difference between watch collecting and watch appreciation. Just like arts, collecting is associated with ownership (and the finance to it) but appreciation does not necessarily require so.

In my opinion, exclusivity of an item is more related to collecting than appreciation. Hence I can probably understand why a collector wants something exclusive.

[pegasi]

I wonder what will happen when the grandmasters who said to be making nearly all the parts of his watches by himself no longer around? Will the watches be more sought after? Or the opposite because it is difficult to have it serviced and repaired (if it is at all possible)?